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While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Practice is key. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. Its proven knowledge. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. Riley, love your artical. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Ret. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. The ambulance took him away. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. F=MA is not applicable. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. Shot placement vs. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. Thank you. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. We had a good chuckle out of that one. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. This can cause more than embarrassment. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. Battlestar Galactica. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. Been hunting 49 years. With practice almost anything is possible. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. I see your point. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. What a joke! I can buy that. Good article and very good to great comments. But thats a subject for another article. To me the rest dont count. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. Really lets cut to the chase. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. In my own personal EXPERIENCE the .45 tends to put the assailant down with ONE OR TWO rounds. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. Its too small. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. I am older now, living in the city. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. Unless they needed concealablity. I have shot many different calibers. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. So its purpose is based on design. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. I carry a 10auto. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Shot placement is not a variable, it is a constant. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) We can argue 9 vs 45. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. He was 15.. You have renewed my faith in man. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. Think the title of this article is misleading. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. Both are great calibers. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. Thats why were here right? Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. Cool story for real. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. Owned a model 29 .357 Im in the process to actually buy one. Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. CHEERS. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. very obvious. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. Id use either! 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Startle affect. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. All rights reserved. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. for all the same reasons. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Please dont send me any hate mail. Explore. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I totally agree about shot placement. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Rookie year. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. This is real life experience not article information research. The one that traveled the furthest was looking back over its shoulder and was hit in the muzzle. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! It doesnt get more damaging that that. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. Damage: 22 per pellet. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. How about a discussion of American made vs foreign made weapons for our military? So, the answer is simple, right? I am old school. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm.