The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. Collette Lopold Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Britte Frres Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Search. (copy right L.R. Bernard Alphonse I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. The Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . I have not fired it. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? (most sales were in the 1930s). The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Colleye Henri Joseph Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. There's no indication of gauge. Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Board Of Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture Four barrel . The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Belgian Liege gunmakers He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these 1860-1870. Bastin Frres 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Please - no questions about your old guns. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Cachoir Can you send me some, Ed? I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). BRITTE, BURY AND OTHERS Magic of hunting gun "Cueruy" could be the maker. Rifles & Musket Information. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Belgian Liege gunmakers (G to K) - Volume 3 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums Sorry! Coquilhat Aim % The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. 10 Biggest American Gun Companies Share a Rich History - Wide Open Spaces Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. old belgian gun makers - Telecore Digital Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) - Military Factory Bernimolin When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 29 Classic Guns: Old Rifles, Collectible Shotguns, and - Field & Stream Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Bettonville - Fontaine Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Bertrand Antoine ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. "Any maker's name or place of origin? Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Christophe & Montigny Wish I could be more helpful! Closset J.M. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Counet Philippe Chaumont M.J. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Bertrand Antoine & Fils Where did you find the Falla mark? IMPORTANT NOTE! presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Thank you Jerry. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. . the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Boden The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Chartier proof marks. Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. I recently decided to clean it up. Seen When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Mauser Serial Numbers DatabaseMAUSER PISTOLC-96 (BROOMHANDLE)DATES OF Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. thank you. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. Andr M.J. production. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! This printed firearms books bibliary. Thank y'all again! This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Bauduin Charles Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Price guide for BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Arnold Mathias It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Belgium - Shotguns Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a Very helpfull once again. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Clment Walter Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). . Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Clment-Neumann Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. listed in alphabetical order. Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Burlet It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. JavaScript is disabled. Testing the gun Do you have any information on them? Bronne Gustave be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. . One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). Baltus - Wilmotte for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide Bonzon & Arents & Cie Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Thanks. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Coleye M. N. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Can you add any details? Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. Information, NRA A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. the 20th century. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. %PDF-1.3 Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Bernard Ernest Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Christophe Louis Most double shotguns represented here. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 - HLEBOOKS.com Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. Comblain Hubert Joseph I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? Gun Indentification - German Hunting Guns There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Behr Jean jacques Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. Chaineux J. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Bodson N. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? this location now so you can return often. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. Some older foreign )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Blogger Bultot Jean Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters.
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