One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Agree. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. 16th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 17th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 18th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 19th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 20th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 13th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 14th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 15th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 16th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 17th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 18th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 19th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 20th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 21st-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, Roman Catholic theologians by nationality, List of Catholic philosophers and theologians, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lists_of_Christian_theologians&oldid=1083295880, Lists of theologians and religious studies scholars, Short description is different from Wikidata, Pages using sidebar with the child parameter, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, Eastern Orthodox theologians by nationality, This page was last edited on 18 April 2022, at 03:54. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. I might get around to it, at some point. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. It bothered me a whole lot (and she and I talked about it via email), but it also crystallized some things for me. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. . Below is an OP from 2006. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. Can God repair things? God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. Purity of Ideology, Dee. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. Should the conversation be halted? A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Tell himyou love himanyway. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. @ Muff Potter: Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. Might we call what youre describing love? God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. Jeff S wrote: That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. I am sorry that you feel this way, because it does sound like you just want an open field assault on Calvinism and for Calvinists to hold their tongue. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). This is what some people have heard their entire life. and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. John Piper (46:41) "This is the one you're all waiting for," Dever quips. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. There are a lot of avenues going on here. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. John Hagee. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. CALVIN!. I need it. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. His attitude impresses me. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). Off my nursing soapbox . All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. 1550-1616), who was not. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. We know that some of you disagree with us. From accuracy to portability, that #1 pick beat nearly every other model in our lineup for every metric. I will post about this. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. How wonderful to remember those days! Its all up to God. @ Daisy: When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. @ Nick Bulbeck: The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. Please continue to dialog. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". Ben Witherington III 24. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. Rather, it is a "revival" of sortsa revival of traditional, "old" Calvinism.The movement is sweeping through American evangelical churches of all denominations, attracting young people from Free Church, Episcopal, Independent, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches alike. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. Ham- as a proof text for poor science. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? by allowing them). He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. Im glad I know that now. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. I was aware of Reformed theology and had friends in each of those churches who tipped that way. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Well see how well I execute on that. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. whats so complicated about that? Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. This short paper contains a list of common-sense and biblical arguments and counter-arguments against Calvinism and predestination. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). Do you know how many people want to prove to me that they are correct? * Okay, end of sermon. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. The Calvinistas act on a lot of things. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, Hester, thank you for that word pictureit will lend an air of drama to my week . The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. Can they wrestle with it on their own? This, of course, is totally irrelevant. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I dont know. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. This is as it should be, imo. Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. They tend to become kings when in power too long. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. CALVIN! Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. In my mind its all about power. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. I used to have the same problem talking with, or debating Roman Catholics, online. @ Bridget: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. We may diverge a bit here. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. I am sure that there are other places that approach things this wayI just hadnt found them. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. It was like the only choices I had were to swear allegiance to Calvin or give up my beliefs that align with what he taught about grace. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. Dark times. Thats not counting all the wives of elders, deacons, and Christian men in general. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. Im sure you didnt mean every single one. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. . We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? 1) That article. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. If Im wrong, I apologize. And its not because we cant or are unwilling (as in errant school children who just need some tutoring) to accept, Gods ways to be different from ours.. *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. Press J to jump to the feed. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Im sure no one here would like someone to denounce their beliefs by stating them in a way that they dont accept. Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. Roger Olson 23. We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. Do arminians believe in salvation through faith? Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue :), I cannot express the relief and renewal- or perhaps, first real taste- of the joy of my salvation. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. That is the only argument they have. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. CALVIN! In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. Pray for him. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. JeffS we were writing at the same time. I think many. When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). So, I disagree with your choice of word infantilised because in my example Im talking about giving someone hurting exactly what they need (emotionally/spiritually) at the precise time they need it just like breastmilk. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. @ dee: Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. And no, I did not. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. The promises are over the top. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. Both groups will say you dont understand their views/religion, or they say you are misrepresenting them (even if you really are not and have read lots of books by ex, or current, members of their groups who explain what the group believes). You are not a Cavinista. And its complicated by the same problem that David came up against (and I quote the Psalm not because Im trying to educated everyone but because it puts it so well): If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide.